Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Study of the LDS Church - 6.3 False Prophecies

This one is going to be a long one. So sit back and get comfortable. I didn't want to overwhelm you, but I decided to post all of these false prophecies so that you could get a feeling for just how inaccurate the LDS prophets have been. This should give you plenty of information concerning this topic.

Central to the foundation of the LDS belief system is the need for a living prophet who is the top of the hierarchy of mortals in the LDS church. This man, so they believe, receives direct revelations from God, just as the prophets of the Old Testament did. These men are believed to be in the same category as the Biblical prophets Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, and others.

In ancient times, the most telling sign of a prophet was accuracy. One must be write 100% of the time. There are no “sometimes,” “usually,” “mostly,” or “almost always” to the task. If you were not 100% accurate, the word you received was not from God. Can the LDS prophets of more modern times stand up to this strenuous test? Let’s look at some of their prophecies and the facts that surround the outcome of them:

(most of the following taken verbatim from this awesome source and this work):
  • PROPHECY: "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunger and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrated a foul and corroding blot upon the fair name of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394, May 1843)
    TRUTH: The plight of the early Saints after being driven out of their homes time and again is well known. Their wrongs were never redressed. Well more than "a few years" have passed since that time. Yet, despite the following prophecy from Joseph, the U.S. government continues strong.
  • PROPHECY: "4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house." (D&C 84: 4-5)
    TRUTH: On April 30, 1832, Joseph prophesied that a temple would be built in Independence, Missouri before the current generation passed away. Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled more than 70 years late and counting. There still is no LDS temple in Independence, Missouri.

    BACKGROUN D INFO: In 1976, the 137th section of Doctrine and Covenants was submitted to the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a vote to be "sustained" as scripture. It is a narrative of a vision supposedly seen by Joseph in Kirtland, Ohio in 1836. What the members who voted on this new addition to scripture were not told by "the Brethren," is that whole paragraphs (216 words) of the actual revelation as recorded in The History of the Church had been conveniently left out of the version to be included in the Doctrine and Covenants. The reason for these omissions was that four false prophecies were contained in the part of the revelation which was censored out. These were prophecies so obviously incorrect that even the average LDS reader would pick them up. Therefore they went down the "black hole" of Mormon history. Here is what is not in the new D&C 137:
  • PROPHECY: [Joseph Smith:] "....I saw the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth, who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and their feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus standing in their midst, and they did not behold him. The Saviour looked upon them and wept.
    "I also beheld Elder M'Lellin in the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him supported by his crutches; he threw them down at his word and leaped as a hart, by the mighty power of God.
    "Also, I saw Elder Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of a bout a dozen men of color, who appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own tongue, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand, protecting him, but he did not see it.
    "And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full."
    TRUTH: First, at least seven of the twelve under discussion were soon excommunicated or apostatized from the church: John F. Boynton & Luke S. Johnson (1837), Lyman Johnson (1838), William E. M'Lellin (c.1838), Thomas B. Marsh & Orson Hyde (1838), and William Smith (1845). How could they have ever attained the celestial kingdom under those conditions? Although a few of these men later returned to the church, the majority remained apart for life. Second, the vision of M'Lellin preaching and working miracles in the south never came true because he apostatized from the church without ever doing it (see above). Third, although Brigham Young did bring the Mormons west and was a great colonizer and orator, the vision of Brigham Young preaching to "men of color" in their own language, in some strange and faraway place in the southwest never took place, or at least there is no trace of it in the very detailed records and diaries concerning his reign as prophet. Finally, Zion (Independence, Missouri) was never redeemed, and has never been redeemed in the 150+ years since the prophecy was made. Is it any wonder that the Brethren chose to remove whole chunks of this "inspired" revelation?
  • PROPHECY: "…I give unto you counsel and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come…"
    TRUTH: In D&C 104:1 (1834) a prophecy is given concerning the LDS institution, the "United Order" (a theocratic, communistic method of distributing and controlling property and goods), as seen above. LDS history reveals that this "everlasting" order had to be disbanded soon after because it failed. Mormons today do not practice a communal approach to property.

    BACKGROUN D INFO: With more than $50,000 in debts coming due, Joseph hearkened back to his gold digging days when he read a story in the Painesville Telegraph concerning a vast treasure buried beneath an old house in Salem, Massachusetts. Joseph had been enchanted by Salem as a youth, as it was where he first tasted the exciting world outside his small Vermont village. A convert named Burgess offered to lead Joseph to the exact location of the house in Salem. So Joseph departed east with Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, and his brother Hyrum, ostensibly on a missionary tour. When they arrived in Salem in August 1836, he received this revelation:
  • PROPHECY: "I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality…and it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth, pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them… And the place where it is my will that you would tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you. This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city. For there are more treasures than one for you in this city." (D&C 111)
    TRUTH: Joseph never found any treasures in Salem. The "many people" were never gathered out, as only 13 were baptized out of the whole city. The treasures of silver and gold prophesied were never found. They returned to Kirtland, Ohio the following month, disillusioned and without funds to pay their debts. (Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History, 192-193)
  • PROPHECY: "…thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant, David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world. (D&C 114:1, 1838)
    TRUTH: Sadly, Patten was killed before he could fulfill this prophecy. Apologists have two arguments against this fact. One is that Patten was actually being called on a mission to the spirit world after death. Although that is a creative response, the verse itself contradicts it since 1) he was to go on the mission with eleven other men, none of whom were killed before spring; and 2) the verse says his mission was to "the whole world." The other argument is that he wasn't worthy of the mission so the Lord killed him. The problem with that assertion is that Joseph Smith himself proclaimed that:
    "Brother David Patten was a very worthy man, beloved by all good men who knew him…and died as he had lived, a man of God, and strong in the faith of a glorious resurrection…one of his last expressions to his wife was 'whatever you do else, O! do not deny the faith.'" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 171).
  • PROPHECY: In the work, An Address to All Believers in Christ, David Whitmer, (one of the "Three Witnesses" to the Book of Mormon) related that in the winter of 1829-1830, Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery on a mission to Toronto, Canada to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon. This mission was ordered by a revelation that Joseph claimed he had received from God.
    TRUTH: Unfortunately, both the mission and the revelation were failures. This is yet another false prophecy, as the man anxious to buy the copyright to the Book of Mormon never appeared
  • PROPHECY: In the winter of 1843, during a sermon to his people in the grove next to the Nauvoo temple, Joseph called his son to the stand beside him and declared:"I have often been asked who would succeed me as the prophet to the church. My son Joseph will be your next prophet."
    TRUTH: Despite claims by the LDS church to the contrary, the evidence is strong that Joseph blessed his eldest son, Joseph, and promised him succession as the church's next prophet. This event was confirmed through sworn testimonies by Sophia K. Cook, niece of Martin Harris, as well as James Whitehead, secretary to Joseph Smith, and John H. Carter, all of whom heard the speech (Zion's Ensign, Vol. 12, No. 29, p. 5; Temple Lot Case, pp. 28, 180; No Man Knows My History, p. 381-2).
    Lyman Wight said in a letter to the Northern Islander: "Now Mr. Editor, if you had been present when Joseph called on me shortly after we came out of jail, to lay hands with him on the head of a youth, and heard him cry aloud, you are my successor when I depart, and heard the blessings poured on his head…you would not have been led by blind fanaticism…" (Reprinted in Saints Advocate, Vol. 7 (September 1884), p. 478)
    Joseph's son recalled this incident in later years: "I was also present at a meeting in the grove near the temple, and I remember my father laying his hands on my head, and saying to the people that this was his successor, or was to be his successor." (Temple Lot Case, p. 79).
    Henry Brown in his History of Illinois (New York, 1844) stated: "The prophet, it is said, has left a will or revelation appointing a successor; and, among other things, it is stated that his son, a lad of twelve years, is named therein as his successor. Of this, however, there is no certainty." (History of Illinois, p. 489)
    And finally, John D. Lee confirmed: "It was then understood among the Saints that Young Joseph was to succeed his father." (Mormonism Unveiled, p. 155)
    Of course, the Reorganized LDS Church broke away on this very issue, because Brigham Young rather than Joseph's son was appointed the successor in the LDS Church.
  • PROPHECY: 56 And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding house which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation. 57 For this anointing have I put upon his head, that his blessing shall also be put upon the head of his posterity after him. 58 And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed. 59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord. 60 And let the name of that house be called Nauvoo House; and let it be a delightful habitation for man, and a resting-place for the weary traveler, that he may contemplate the glory of Zion, and the glory of this, the corner-stone thereof; Doctrine & Covenants 124: 56-60
    TRUTH: In D&C 124.56-60, Smith prophesied that the Nauvoo House in Nauvoo, IL. would be in his family forever (1841). It did not remain in his family, and is not owned by them today. This makes for a very false prophecy.
  • PROPHECY: 18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings [Words of Wisdom], walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; 19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; 20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. 21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
    TRUTH: The Mormons are noted for their Word of Wisdom revelation which forbids them from drinking liquor, coffee or tea, or to smoke. This is in D&C 89. Many Mormons do not realize that there is also a prophecy in it in vs.18-21. The fact is that this promise isn't working Although most Mormons diligently keep this Word of Wisdom, they do not find any treasures of knowledge. They certainly run and become weary; and they certainly become faint at times from walking. In fact, many of the highest leaders of the LDS church (who presumably are keeping this commandment) are sick and dying of degenerative diseases. The entire First Presidency several years ago was so ill with blindness, Parkinson's disease and cancer that a Third Counselor to the Prophet had to be called to take over. The destroying angel certainly is not passing the Mormons by; as it did the children of Israel in the Passover. Mormons die just like everyone else. Although they try hard to keep the LDS god's commandment, he does not seem to be keeping his end of the bargain, or else Joseph Smith is a false prophet!
  • PROPHECY: And again, I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord. D&C 117: 12
    TRUTH: You ask 99 out of 100 Mormons who Oliver Granger is, and they will give you a blank look. His name is supposed to be in everlasting remembrance from generation to generation, and yet most Mormons have never heard of him.
  • PROPHECY: And again, verily I say unto you, my servant George Miller is without guile; he may be trusted because of the integrity of his heart; and for the love which he has to my testimony I, the Lord, love him. 21 I therefore say unto you, I seal upon his head the office of a bishopric, like unto my servant Edward Partridge, that he may receive the consecrations of mine house, that he may administer blessings upon the heads of the poor of my people, saith the Lord. Let no man despise my servant George, for he shall honor me. D&C 124: 20-21
    TRUTH: In spite of this endorsement from "the Lord," George Miller was excommunicated seven years later.
  • PROPHECY: “Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be pour out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain…and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshalled and disciplined for war. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations.That the cry of the saints, and the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen." D&C 87: 1-8
    TRUTH: Keep an eye on this one, as many Mormons will point it out as one of Joseph’s true prophecies. Let’s look closer though…This prophecy was given on Christmas Day, 1832, in appearance almost 30 years before the Civil War. Although the prophecy looks good on the surface, it must be realized that at the time this was brought forth, South Carolina was already involved in many rebellious acts, and this fact was available in the papers of the time. Congress had passed a tariff in July of 1832 that South Carolina had declared unacceptable. It was during the Christmas season that the nation's press expected and wrote about the impending outbreak of civil war, beginning with this rebellion in South Carolina. Even the U.S. Army was on alert. With these facts at hand, it didn't take much of a seer to predict the unfolding events. Even a paper published by the Mormons themselves contained such news! However, the war did not come to pass. The entire prophecy was shelved and never appeared again during Joseph Smith's lifetime. The first two editions of the History of the Church did not include it even though it was in the original manuscript. It reappeared in 1852 when the war again seemed imminent. Aside from the dating problems, the scope of the prophecy is not in balance. In just one item, the prophecy states that war would begin locally and pour out upon all nations and shall be the direct cause of an international global war. Even the great World War I did not encompass all nations, and it was 50 years after the Civil War and had no possible relationship to it! This is a definite false prophecy that did not come to pass. Former Mormon Dick Baer has pointed out there are at least 20 elements in this prophecy, and for it to be a true prophecy, all of those elements would have to have come to pass. In human terms, those odds are 1 in 1,048,576óa truly remarkable achievement, had Smith pulled it off. Obviously he did not. In another example, verses 4 through 6 state that the slaves shall rise up, the remnants left in the land shall rise up against the Gentiles (non-Mormons) and the bloodshed, famines, plagues (caused by this great war) shall bring with God's wrath, "...a full end of all nations." This did not happen. In fact, Smith only got two elements out of 20 right, and those were based on current events and common sense. Sorry, this is a bad one!
  • PROPHECY: “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not maid in vain.”—Brigham Young, 1870, Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271
  • PROPHECY “Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do—that they live generally to near the age of a 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”—Oliver B. Huntington, 1892, Young Woman’s Journal, vol. 3, p. 263
    TRUTH: Seriously? Quakers on the moon? Men on the sun? This one is just ludicrous.
  • PROPHECY: Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?’ If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted.”—Brigham Young, 1866, Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269
    TRUTH: The church disbanned polygamy after a “revelation” from President/Prophet Wilford Woodruff in 1889. Utah became a state in 1896 soon after.
  • PROPHECY: “The Church and kingdom to which we belong will become the kingdom of our God and his Christ, and brother Brigham Young will become President of the United States. [Voices responded, ‘Amen.’]…You may think that I am joking; but I am perfectly willing that brother Long would write every word of it; for I can see it just as naturally as I see the earth and the productions thereof.” —Herber C. Kimball, 1856, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 219
    TRUTH: One quick look into a history book (or your mind) can tell you that this never occurred.

How does the LDS church get past all of these missed prophecies? Apologists have many explantations, but most of them can be summarized into the following categories as given by Michael T. Griffith (my personal rebuttal follows in italicized red text):

  1. "Almost all prophecy is conditional to one degree or another, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself (which is often the case). Really? How do you know if/when it is fulfilled? After the fact? What's the point of this?
  2. In many cases human actions and choices can alter, postpone, or prevent the fulfillment of prophecy. So God is not all-knowing? He doesn't know what men will do that would/could alter His plans? Can mankind actually stop God from doing what He wants?
  3. A prophecy is not always telling us what will happen, but what could happen under certain circumstances. Once again, the planets must all align so that God's will is done? I would think He would make sure that happened!
  4. A prophet can misunderstand the timetable for a prophecy's fulfillment (this, of course, does not invalidate the prophecy itself). Then shouldn't he keep his mouth shut if there is the possibility that he could mess up the message from God?
  5. A prophet can be mistaken about certain details of a prophecy but correct with regard to its central message. Then shouldn't he keep his mouth shut if there is the possibility that he could mess up the message from God?
  6. A prophecy can apply to more than one occurrence or time period, i.e., it can have dual application. I'd be more prone to believe it twice if it would just happen once.
  7. A prophecy's fulfillment can be intended to take place in the spirit world or during the millennium, even if this is not stated in the prophecy itself. Wow! This sounds like a pretty good out for any prophecy! How would we ever know if/when it was fulfilled?
  8. The fulfillment of prophecy can go unobserved and/or unrecorded. If it was important enough for God to speak to a prophet, don't you think it would be important enough to record once it happened?
  9. A prophecy can contain rhetorical overstatements. For example, a prophecy might read that "every single house" in a certain town will be "leveled to the ground," when what is really meant is that the town will suffer heavy destruction. So does God exaggerate or does the prophet? If it is God, why did He never do that in the Bible? If it is the prophet, why are his words getting in the way of God's prophecy?
  10. Such terms and expressions as "soon," "quickly," "in a little while," "shortly," etc., are often given from the Lord's perspective of time--so that "soon," for example, might turn out to be a very long time by our reckoning. This one I actually can understand.
  11. The text of a prophecy can undergo alteration to the point that it no longer reflects the original intent of the prophecy." Who has the right to change the text of prophecy? If these prophecies could be in error, why couldn't all of the Book of Mormon text be in error?

The truth is that the Bible tells us that a prophet of God must be 100% accurate (“…the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.…and they that are led of them are destroyed.”—Isaiah 9:15-16).
The Bible also teaches that John the Baptist was the last of the Biblical-style prophets in Luke (“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”—Luke 16:16) and that there is no longer a need for a living prophet because, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things.…”—Hebrews 1:1-2. It is clear that since the time of Jesus, there has been no need for a prophet to give a message to mankind directly from God. (“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” —1 Timothy 2:5)

After all of this reading, I’ll just give you some quick questions:

  1. If the prophecy concerning Quaker-like people living on the moon is false, would it be safe to trust the same prophets in your salvation?
  2. Why does the Book of Mormon prophesy that the Jews would be restored to the land of their inheritance if they believed in Christ? You do know that they are currently inhabiting that land now without believing in Jesus as the Christ.
  3. If Brigham young was a true prophet, why were at least 2 of his prophecies overturned by a later prophet with a new revelation (never overturning polygamy and black men could not hold the priesthood until all white men were converted)? Did God change His mind? Did God not know that he should put a disclaimer in the original prophecy?

When Joseph was asked why a revelation had failed, he explained that:

"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil…When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord." (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 31)

But the question must be asked, if the "prophet" Joseph Smith cannot tell which of his revelations are from God and which are not; why should we trust any of them?

Study of the LDS Church - 6.4 The Kinderhook Plates


Sandy said...

I wonder if you would like to understand why somethings appear one way... but are really another... to some...

Missing (only received via personal revelation/Holy Ghost...) knowledge, or hidden treasures of knowledge... are the reason..

For instance... knowing that this life's sentence for justice... explains why many seemingly innocent suffer...

It explains why repentence is the main theme given here because we all are sinners (not just in this existence, but before...) we all transgressed... and are fallen.

Read why this 'justice/hell' is for a short time conditionally under the power of darkness where chaos rules, (Ephesian 6:12, 2 Cor.4:1-4.)where Satan can bruise our heals, but through Christ we can crush/bind his head/power over us..

If you realize we are in hell/first death/separation from God out of the garden of Eden...all of us... not just Adam and Eve... then you realize that no one here on earth is righter than any other... it is all in a corruptable state... you would stop chasing people down with your finger pointing....

Calling the kettle black... pot...

Kaye said...

My purpose in this series is not to be judgmental or offensive. Based on my beliefs there are a lot of people being misled because of the LDS church. I don't think they are stupid or more sinful than I am. I think they are misinformed. Due to this, I think they are completely on the wrong path and will not find the path they expect to be on from where they are. It is an effort to point out the inconsistancies in their teacihngs.

I don't believe that we are currently in hell. Why? Well, because I don't believe in pre-existance, therefore I don't believe that we did anything to deserve hell before being born into this world (yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but before birth, do not deserve hell). Also why I don't believe we are in hell? I have experienced God here. Personally through my relationship with Him as well as through other God-touched people. God would not be in hell. Plain and simple.

No, Sandy. This world can't hold any comparison to hell, which will be completely absent of God. I feel for you and anyone else who feels that this is as bad as it can get. Unfortunately, it will be far worse than any of us can fathom.

Sandy said...

Who could believe they are God? Only He rules and judges such things...

As for not believing in a pre-existence... you must then not believe in the bible?... then where do you call yourself a Christian?.

Kaye said...

I am not saying that all LDS members are going to hell. That's up to God to decide and based on their personal relationship with Him. So no...I don't think I am God. Far from it.

I am basing this entire study not on individuals of that church but on what the church teaches its members...which DOES NOT coincide with the Bible. That's why I feel the members have been misled...because of what the church teaches, which is, in fact, contrary to God's Word.

I do not believe in pre-existance, and I would like to know where in the Bible it denotes that we pre-existed. I do believe that God had a plan for us before we were physically born on this earth, but that is because He is all-knowing. I don't believe this means we actually existed in some form before being conceived in the womb.

I call myself a Christian because I believe in the Bible as the holy, unchanging Word of God. There are many things I don't understand, but I have faith in my God, and He has seen me through. I believe in God as the maker and ruler of the universe. I believe in Jesus Christ as God's Son and the Messiah. I believe that He physically walked this earth in human form, died a torturous human death, and rose again after 3 days to defeat death and sin for those who choose to follow Him. I believe that 40 days later He ascended into Heaven in His glorified body and sits there now waiting for His second coming and intercedes for us. I believe in the Holy Spirit as a messenger sent after Christ's departure from the earth. I believe He dwells in the hearts of all believers and is God indwelling in us (His followers). I believe He is the good in me and allows me to be capable of things that I personally am not good enough to pull off myself, as I am a sinner, although a forgiven one. I believe in the Trinity...God as three persons. This is how I call myself a Christian.

Sandy said...

Jer. 1: 5
5 Before I aformed thee in the belly I bknew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I csanctified thee, and I dordained thee a prophet unto the enations.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8: 28-30. He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1: 3-4. Jesus Christ was foreordained to be the Redeemer, 1 Pet. 1: 19-20 (Rev. 13: 8). They were called and prepared from the foundation of the world,

All Bible... all before you were formed in the womb...

Why not attack the Catholic church... it has way more wrong if you are seeking to find others' faults..

I see a personal agendaa...not a righteous one... but a vendetta of some sort...

You will be judged on the same premise you are judging others... half truths, blindness, prejudice...

God... is accessable in hell...

He is the light and truth... in this dark world..

He created us and this world .. he won't abandon us even in hell...

He will do what it takes to bring us back to him...

He sends prophets down here... the bible is repleat with His work for us...

He left His glorious throne... and decended below... to save us...

SAVE US... from what? the body he created for us?... the world he created for us?...

Think about us all being sinners...

We are... and justice must be served... except for the Mercy offered all of us sinner here in hell...

This isn't the final hell... that is still to come... this is a probationary/life sentence... age of man... time of trouble.. to be vexed and tormented... by satan..

Confusion rules this darkness we exist in... Only through Christ can we find the way that only a few will find in the end..

It is a hidden way... it must be searched out here in hell... Satan is everywhere without being bidden... where as... Christ must be searched out... asked for... knock.. and it shall be open..

Not so with Satan who rules this world...

I know you won't get it... because you have already decided you are right and Mormons are wrong...

But so are all religions... wrong.. corrupt...

Some are better than others... but all mislead.. you are mislead...

but blindness won't allow you to see it...

Kaye said...

Alright, Sandy. You are free to believe as you will, just as I am...just as everyone is. My personal agenda is well stated if you will read the intros to this study. I will not apologize for them.

I do not agree with your interpretation of the scriptures that you listed, but you will not bend on your reading of them anymore than I will, so I will not continue to waste my breath (figuratively speaking, of course). If you will continue reading this series, you can actually find my understanding of these very scriptures in the section discussing the LDS teaching on pre-existance. You are welcome to continue reading and commenting as you will, but I will not further argue these points with you here. My purpose and inspiration for this series is well documented within the study. If you read the entire thing (or even the beginnings of it), you will see that. If you are just looking for somewhere to argue, which it seems, as you have not felt the urge to comment on any other post I have made, I will not continue to entertain the antagonism on this particular post. My feelings and beliefs are stated well throughout this site and this study in particular.

It seems that you are as biased and "stuck" as you are accusing me of being. I find that ironic, but not surprising, as it is true with almost all of the spiritual discussions I get into with people who believe differently than I do. It's not uncommon. It is humorous though that you cannot see that point clearly.

I do not apologize for my beliefs. I defend them. That's what my site is for. If you don't like it, I'm not forcing you to stick around, although you are certainly welcome to if you would like to continue reading and make an attempt to understand where I come from rather than attacking it.

Thank you for stopping by.

Sandy said...

I just 'happened' upon your site doing research...

So I am really not interested in YOU... though that is what you seem to preach..

I am not LDS... though I have been friends with, taught by and learned much from the Mormons...

I feel, from looking over this site and listening to you personally ... that your religion is anti others... pro-me...

That is fine...

Happy life for the time you have left... I won't waste any more of my searching time here...

Kaye said...

I guess that last comment just goes to show that you really haven't spent much time looking through my site. Good luck on your perusing through more posts and articles across the internet. I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.